these things they seem far out. >> well, i don't think they should anymore. first of all, there is good research on many of these. at the university of arizona, center of integrative medicine which i founded and direct, we regularly train physicians, nurse practitioners, pharmacists, medical students, residents in the use of this. these are examples of what i mean by low-tech, cheaper approaches to disease intervention and treatment. and you know, there are so many things out there, from dietary change, use of exercise, the various mind-body techniques. none of these being taught in medical schools today. this is medicine of the future. i call it integrative medicine. and it has the great potential to lower health care costs by bringing lower-cost treatments into the mainstream that can produce outcomes as good or better than those of conventional medicine. >> are you generally an opponent of the pharmaceutical industry? >> well, you know, i'm no friend of the pharmaceutical industry.